Changes in Mame of note to Kaillera client builders:

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Changes in Mame of note to Kaillera client builders:

Postby Kurgan » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:47 am

Lately, (version 110 "u" cycle) Mamedev has made it so that the CPS2 games (formerly emulated via xors or "decryption" on the fly) are going to require multi-gigabyte (4 gigs was the figure cited popularly) CHD files in order to run.

This is strange to most of us since CPS2 games didn't use hard drive images, and it's apparently just an imperfect simulation of the decryption data anyway or some such.

I don't really understand it (didn't Razoola and CPS2shock decrypt the games long ago and release the decryption scheme to developers? I didn't just dream that!), but anyway.

The point is, CPS2 games, which are easy to play now, will suddenly become a huge burden in newer versions of Mame. So the way to get around this would be to use code from the source of older mame builds (109 and earlier).

The CPS2 games are "good enough" now. Haze (one of the mame devs) made it sound like these were just a temporary measure, but in the meantime, what reason would there be to force people who want to play these games online to use the 4 gig chds?



Also, another thing, is that ever since version 108 (I think it was, somewhere around 106-109 anyway), the Video options changed.

It used to be you could select scanlines and blit effects and they looked GREAT frankly (as long as you aren't running a VGA arcade monitor, which most people aren't... because if you are you don't need blit effects at all.. .these are just to SIMULATE what an arcade monitor would look like, on a pc screen), but the new versions don't.

Basically with the latest versions of Mame you have two choices for viewing your games...

Full screen and fuzzy, or non-stretched and chunky (pixelated with no effects).

That sucks, frankly. I remember how great StretchMame was back in the day when it was still being supported and how popular. It had all the regular modes of Mame32 and more.

Mame32k client builds continued to support a variety of blit effects and options all throughout the various mame releases until the "new video emulation schemes" and suddenly we were down to just two choices.. neither of which looks like how it would have looked in the arcade (nobody played these games on a PC monitor in the arcades back in the day, they either played them in the arcades on a TV or vga monitor, or they played them at home with a SUPERGUN type system which used either a TV or a real arcade monitor).


So I strongly encourage Mame32k client builders to PLEASE take note. Don't just take the easy route and recycle the latest Mame32 and slap in kaillera support. Please give us the features that gamers want.

Mamedev has stated time and time again that they don't care about features that "gamers" and "fans" want, they only care about (what they consider to be) "accuracy."

That's their point of view. But the whole point of having custom builds, which are unofficial and not supported by Mamedev in ANY WAY... to give us FUN features.

Yes, we know, anyone can make their own build if they know how, but the point is... why waste your time... why should every single mame user make their own version... when a couple of talented people can put in the features that the most users would benefit from, give them out and then all these people can get together and play online together?

Besides, without the same build, two people can't play online together, so the good builds need to be supported.

Yes, there are people determined NEVER to upgrade, but we can just ignore them, since they are happy and need nothing new ever (so they seem to act).


Anyway, happy holidays! I hope with Etai around things will change for the better and hopefully we can see more development and support of Kaillera in the future, despite what the naysayers may say....
Set your mojob mame color in display to match your stupid ass desktop color to avoid black screen in netplay, fukaz. t(';'t -TFR, AD 2-20-02
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Postby civilian » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:00 pm

ummm...tihs shud go in the ciht caht seciton =/
client builders? wondrenig waht u somke thsee days. tihs siht is fab
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Postby Kurgan » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:47 pm

Drunk?

I'm just trying to help out by providing some useful (at least I thought it was) info.

What people do with it is entirely their affair...
Set your mojob mame color in display to match your stupid ass desktop color to avoid black screen in netplay, fukaz. t(';'t -TFR, AD 2-20-02
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Postby civilian » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Considering the fact that mame is a mere documentation project, whatever they are doing there is fare. Would not matter if they started using algorithms which made it impossible for normal computers to run them in real time or required 4 gb for each game. As long as someone has a copy of it, its all good.

still...its totally irrelevant to kaillera.
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Postby Kurgan » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:45 am

Honestly I think their primary motive behind all the "it's just a documentation project for programmers" rhetoric is just to cover their a$$ed, with the added benefit that they can retort to ANY complaint about games not working properly that it's not meant "for those people" (who want to play games with it).

I like kaillera because it lets me use emulators of games I have nostalgia for, such as the arcade greats and the console classics of the past, to play these games WITH other people.

This makes it more like the old days when you could walk into a public arcade that was FILLED with games and people playing, sometimes friends, often strangers, and just challenge somebody to a game, or pick up a game with some folks to play cooperatively.

Not everyone can do that these days. It's common for people to invite friends in to play a 2-4 player game on their TV, if they're in the right setting, like in a dorm or something, but not everyone can do that.

Kaillera makes a world-wide "arcade" a possibility. It's a beautiful thing!

Plus it's actually easier to play kaillera for most of us than it is to have a decent sized tv and room with enough controllers and ability to phone up enough people to play any game with/against you at any time of the day or night!


IF there were another emulator (or several emulators) that emulated 90% of these arcade games that I play for Kaillera, that didn't have such an anal attitude about the code and what it's used for, I'd be all for supporting that.

Thus far though, it seems emulator coders are only concerned with a small subset of games... the CPS1 & 2, Neo Geo, and some of the more modern 3d games (like ZN-1/2, model1/2/3).

I'm frankly mostly interested in the 2-d cooperative fighting games from the 1980's-1990's, and the cooperative/competative sports titles from that same period. The 3d games are often too slow, or just too crappy in general.

Maybe somebody wants to play porno mahjong online. I don't, but perhaps somebody does.

Still, if someone out there wanted to cobble together an emulator SPECIFICALLY for Kaillera arcade game fans, that would be the awesomest.

The thing is, most people don't have that kind of time and talent. Mame has swallowed up just about everything these days, and so people either don't want to do the effort, or feel intimidated (or are intimidated for all we know! there seems a great pressure to fit every arcade game under the "mame liscense" so mamedev can try to control it).

I don't think that just because you emulate a game, that you "own" it (which I think might be the attitude of some emulator programmers).

But I realize that opens a can of worms because people will say "oh but the emulator code you own because you did the work, therefore you should get to control how its used), etc."

I understand that.

Anyway, the Mame code is out there, and it's used to create new builds and stuff.

I guess the "controversy" that a few people push every so often to be anti-kaillera, would DISAPPEAR overnight if an "open source" (or copyleft or whatever you want to call what Mame really is) version of Kaillera was used.

Of course I think if that happened, Mamedev would try to control that too if they could (and probably try to make it extinct, like mamenet). Online play to them is too "gamer friendly" and so they hate it and would want to sabotage it.

I realize "fun features" attract not only true gamers, but also "annoying kiddies." That's just how it goes with anything good.

But I think making mame deliberately crappy to make people not want to use it, is not the way to go.

They could have just made mame closed source, and make a new policy wherein anyone who wants to be part of the team has to submit their work for review and thus be "invited in" to join.

It could be just like most other emulators. Just have a release every so often, but nobody gets access to the "source" and so nobody can make these "fun builds" they hate so much.

They could totally control the code that way. Of course then you know somebody would leak out the code just so they could modify it, and then the devs would be pissed and threaten to quit, etc. But with a project as big as mame, you'd think it wouldn't collapse just because one or two people got fed up/pissed.

Oh well. I see nothing wrong with these kaillera builds that isn't "wrong" with any other build of mame. You can argue the whole thing "promotes copyright infringement" if you want. Whatever. But let's face it, it can be used for good, and it is awesome when that's done.

So I say the client builders need to work and not just recycle the latest mame32 builds, but actually try and make them more gamer friendly!
Set your mojob mame color in display to match your stupid ass desktop color to avoid black screen in netplay, fukaz. t(';'t -TFR, AD 2-20-02
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Re: Changes in Mame of note to Kaillera client builders:

Postby Kurgan » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:46 am

Well, this thread is now obsolete, since the 4 gig decryption tables was (thankfully) just a temporary work around, and now they are not required any longer (and haven't been for several versions).

Go about your business... ;)


PS: The scanlines/blit effects/display options thing is still true though! Some of them have been added back but they're sloooow!
Set your mojob mame color in display to match your stupid ass desktop color to avoid black screen in netplay, fukaz. t(';'t -TFR, AD 2-20-02
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Re: Changes in Mame of note to Kaillera client builders:

Postby civilian » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:09 pm

I still don't understand how this has anything to do with client builders =/It's strictly an emulator side agenda.

Closing thread.
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Re: Changes in Mame of note to Kaillera client builders:

Postby Kurgan » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:47 pm

Sorry to pop in one more comment, but my thinking at the time was, that, since that was a test feature that was annoying to gamers, client builders ought to think about it and use an earlier code paste to bypass it until it was fixed (it's fixed now so it doesn't matter).

They can theoretically do the same with the blit effects.

Of course I imagine most client builders are satisfied to just add Kaillera to the latest version of mame32 with little or no extra work, but my advice was to be advised that in some ways the older versions are superior... maybe not for "accuracy" as mamedev defines it, but for online gamers like us who value performance and good looking displays most. ;)


Anyway, thread closed again... ;)
Set your mojob mame color in display to match your stupid ass desktop color to avoid black screen in netplay, fukaz. t(';'t -TFR, AD 2-20-02
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Re: Changes in Mame of note to Kaillera client builders:

Postby civilian » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:03 am

You mean emu builders?
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Re: Changes in Mame of note to Kaillera client builders:

Postby Kurgan » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:37 am

Yes. I mean people who take the kaillera client code and ADD it to an emulator (such as mame32 plus plus or hkaillera).

Of course I don't mean Etai or the Kaillera team, because obviously that's not their job (though they could do it, after all Christophe USED to make his own build of mame32, even though it was ages ago). I'd much rather they finish up the client and server code than to just putter around with mame32.

However, as it is, if the old source for mame32 versions exists, people can still use the old code in new versions, right? The mame32 source is out there and has been for years.

So yes, I'm talking about the emulator stuff, not the kaillera code. I'm saying the guys putting together mame32K's ought to bear that in mind. Instead of just slapping Kaillera support into the latest version of mame32, they can modify it, add new features and streamline it for online multiplayer efficiency and so forth. That could include allowing the old "quick 'n' dirty" blit effects which looked better (on a computer monitor) and were faster than the newer "more accurate" (but slower, uglier) rendering code.
Set your mojob mame color in display to match your stupid ass desktop color to avoid black screen in netplay, fukaz. t(';'t -TFR, AD 2-20-02
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