Kaillera should go peer to peer

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Kaillera should go peer to peer

Postby brian » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:46 pm

Ok I just played street fighter 2 on zbattle, an online system for the zsnes emulator. The lag was not noticable.
Any serious fighting game player will tell you that kaillera is basically too laggy for competitive play. This would presumably be changed if kaillera went to a peer to peer system, like the zbattle one.
Is this a possibilty? Why hasnt it been done already?

Thanks,
Brian
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Postby Mystiq » Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:26 pm

Peer to peer has its advantages and disadvantages. Kaillera is a bit of a mix the way it's designed.

A principal advantage of peer to peer is that it takes the load off of one machine, the server, and places it on every machine on the network. The disadvantage is that the entire network only runs as fast as the slowest machine.

The advantage of server-client is each client runs as fast as it's allowed. This is why people with high pings aren't affected by people with low pings (if a 2000 ping joins a person who started a game and is only a ping of 2, they won't notice anything, unless that person's connection is very iffy and the game sticks a lot).

Kaillera needs to maintain synchricity (yeah yeah, sue me) and acts sort of like a peer to peer network in that it only allows the game to run as smooth as the worst client in the network.

Giving a varying range of ping people, peer to peer will be of no help, though it may solve the Connected. Logging in bug (*cough*). It will certainly not improve lag as well as you probably think it will. The network model of ZBattle is different from Kaillera in that it's specific to the SNES itself. I don't know the specifics, but you're wishing on a star here.
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Postby brian » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:27 pm

so you claim that the fact that zbattle is peer to peer is not the reason that it runs way better than kaillera?
What is it then? The type of data being transmitted in these games must be the same whether its an arcade or snes version.
The peer to peer aspect is the obvious possibility to me. And I really dont understand your explanation, sorry.
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Postby Vonism » Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:12 pm

brian

Ok I just played street fighter 2 on zbattle, an online system for the zsnes emulator.


why would u play a port version when u could play the real version? hehehehe sf2? come on dude! handcuff with guile? u cant beat that! hehehehehe
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Postby Mystiq » Sat Oct 04, 2003 7:08 pm

The reason ZBattle runs better is probably the fact that
1) ZBattle isn't the actual Netplay program; ZSNES is handling it and ZSNES can specialize itself for SNES games which are much less bandwidth-intensive than arcade games
2) You might be playing with someone close to you
3) If you are both on broadband connections, it will significantly reduce ping times, as it does on Kaillera
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Postby Viet Cong » Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:02 am

I recently tried Zbattle and realized the non noticable lag and I was playing someone in Texas, USA from Ontario, Canada. From that, I realized what makes it work to a non-technical extent.

Mystiq is right in a point I never thought of, Mame itself does not support net play, Kaillera is doing the whole thing by itself externally. It has nothing to do with arcade roms or Snes roms and system requirements. I played Need for Speed High stakes PC, with someone in California, peer to peer and noticed no lag and he noticed non either.

Zbattle is just an interface that makes meeting potential players easy, like a lobby, before actually connecting peer to peer, the emulator itself handles the net play. If Mame had built in net play, the same thing would be possible. This realization shows how far advanced and how amazing Kaillera is, when you realize the conditions is works under. If we think about it, Kaillera doesn't need any more updates, mame needs net play built in first. Then Kaillera could be the interface to link us peer to peer.

Vonism your right about the port business, I did try Zbattle, but I can't handle playing the snes versions, when we have the arcade roms, it's just not right. The real wait is for the Mame team to implement net capabilities into Mame.
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Postby Mystiq » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:04 am

There is a thing called delta compression that I don't think is actually being used for any emulator (I know it's used in the Quake games from at least 2 on). If you want further explanation of it, go ahead and ask but there's why I mentioned it:

As we all know (*cough*), Kaillera simply transfers key presses back and forth between players. This is the blind leading the blind and is a very bad way to do things but, by God, it works and sometimes wonderfully. By my experience, ZSNES may be operating in a similar fashion to Kaillera but you'll notice for one that desynchs (from my experience) are a less common occurence.

Delta compression is a method of transfering data between two copies of a running game that require intricate knowledge of the game before it can be implemented. Kaillera, which is a generalized solution that can be used for any emulator, doesn't have intricate knowledge of poop, to be blunt. ZSNES on the other hand has intricate knowledge of what it has to send between two clients to make the poop work, to be just as blunt.

Something which I have no knowledge of is ZSNES's buffer thing. You'll have to go to someone else on that.
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Postby isamu » Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:12 pm

I just posted a topic in the *ZBATTLE* forums. Let's hope they listen and port their program to mame.
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Postby isamu » Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:01 am

I just got a reply from HAZE. He and the devs have absolutely NO desire to turn mame into an online component. They really could give a flying mojob about the whole online multiplayer issue. They are truly against it both from a practical and a moral standpoint. Sad...vary mojob sad:(


We are going to have to rely on someone willing to rewrite MAME's source code from the ground up and implament net code in itself, kinda what The mojob rabbit did but a whole lot better.
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Postby toqer » Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:44 am

This is just an educated guess but....

From conversations with TFR, the mame source got radically changed between 67 and 72. I would suspect that the mame dev's did this to try and make implementing kaillera into mame such a moving target that TFR would no longer bother trying.

Bottom line is mame dev's do not like us. They have taken shots at kaillera whenever the oppertunity presented itself. They hate us because we won't release the source, and they can't figure out how we did it.

**PS**
One more thing.. Rabbits been trying to find gainful employment for some time now. He's living with his uncle in fremont, bad economy, you know. Maybe you could paypal him 5 bucks or something (you don't need a paypal account to recieve money, just too send it)
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Postby Mc2 » Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:03 am

well if you look at the mame source code networking with mamenet is still in their xmame recently got it working and it shouldnt be too hard to do the same for mame32 i think that someone is working with with the network.c and network.h files i have tried to enable it but cant get it working
another project would be to take the open networking sorce from say zsnes or snes9x and add it to mame both shouldt be that hard i can program so so but when it comes to hardware implementation im not that good :cry:
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Postby Mystiq » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:06 pm

Hasn't TFR released the source ever since some battle a few months back?
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Postby isamu » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:07 am

toqer wrote:This is just an educated guess but....

From conversations with TFR, the mame source got radically changed between 67 and 72. I would suspect that the mame dev's did this to try and make implementing kaillera into mame such a moving target that TFR would no longer bother trying.

Bottom line is mame dev's do not like us. They have taken shots at kaillera whenever the oppertunity presented itself. They hate us because we won't release the source, and they can't figure out how we did it.

**PS**
One more thing.. Rabbits been trying to find gainful employment for some time now. He's living with his uncle in fremont, bad economy, you know. Maybe you could paypal him 5 bucks or something (you don't need a paypal account to recieve money, just too send it)


Togar...you hit the nail right on the mojob head! Everything you say regdring their stance and beliefs ar 100% accurate. I just posted in that thread, asking a very pertinent question about where they stand on netplay. It seems the majority of them are, for some ridiculously idiotic reason, against net play IN GENERAL and have even likened it to somethings only for kids :roll: *TAKE A LOOK*

Togar...I tell you what...get in contact with TFR. Let him know we miss him. Tell him we hope he finds a job soon and to hang in there. But also tell him...and this very important...that if he can somehow manage to convince Chris to give him and ONLY HIM the source for kaillera, and can rewrite from the ground up improving the code and squashing the bugs, I will give him $1000 in cash! Let him know that there are people practically dying of thirst for a new, updated kaillera and that he needs to get in touch with chris.

Get back to me and let me know what he said.
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Postby isamu » Sat Oct 18, 2003 9:57 pm

isamu wrote:
Togar...I tell you what...get in contact with TFR. Let him know we miss him. Tell him we hope he finds a job soon and to hang in there. But also tell him...and this very important...that if he can somehow manage to convince Chris to give him and ONLY HIM the source for kaillera, and can rewrite from the ground up improving the code and squashing the bugs, I will give him $1000 in cash! Let him know that there are people practically dying of thirst for a new, updated kaillera and that he needs to get in touch with chris.

Get back to me and let me know what he said.


Hmm, I wonder if Toger got my message...
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Postby toqer » Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:29 pm

I just got it right now..

Unfortunately I have no way of contacting anyone, other than through e-mails, which are the same vectors you can use to reach them.

I also know -C and TFR probably come by these forums daily like I do, they just don't say anything (no news is good news right?)

Kaillera was born during a time when we all had jobs, little worry about things like money, you could get away with anything at work. These days though it's getting tougher to focus on stuff like this. Seriously, between the unemployment and the rising cost of living, a job back where I was is beginning to look like a fast fading memory.

I know everyone wants this for kaillera, or that for kaillera, but it would take a ton of time, skill, and effort to get it to where everyone wants it to be. Call it a hunch, but I think TFR and -C havn't forgotten about us, it's just real life is rough right now and if they are too survive they have to concentrate on that.

Not to mention the mame dev's, their treatment of kaillera in general has been in poor taste too a level which even I cannot sink too ( and I can sink low as we all know)

Just pray the world gets better, pray things go back to the way they were and ought to be. If it does TFR and -C might have the time to work on it again.

--toq

P.S. it's toqer with a Q you nimrod, not G :P
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